Thursday, February 24, 2005

Planning Communities is a Local Process

Today's (February 24) Standard-Examiner carries my response to a recent piece by Al Herring, Chair of the Utah Sierra Club Chapter. Click on Letters to the Editor to find it. I essentially say that if the opponents of Legacy have put forward an alternative for consideration, bring it through the local planning process. Whenever we create or update plans, many ideas are usually brought forward and evaluated. That doesn't gaurantee that all ideas will be accepted by the community, however. The process is still one of the people, by the people, for the people, ALL of the people.

133 Comments:

At February 24, 2005 at 1:43 PM, Blogger Justin said...

You're a liar, and an incredible fraud.

There's no plan behind anything in Davis County, least of all the mindless freeway dreams of the pave-ocracy. The syllogistic logic of Davis County is brutal and cold. It is: I have car, I need road, you build road for me. State of Utah's nature, man.

The only long-term vision anybody up there has is for the further development of cookie-cutter subdivisions and community-strangling big box stores.

It's why Stuart Adams loves this road scheme. He typifies the corruption that pervades Utah's happy highway politics. Slimeball developer has hard time pitching his mini-mansions to the public, buys political office, helps unlawfully shove road plan past any/all environmental review. The final chapter of this often-told story? New freeway has beautiful $30 million clover-leaf on-/off-ramp, providing easy access to Slimeball's grandest development yet.

It's sick, sordid, and hopeless. Especially when the "local process" is dominated by turds like this blog's publishers, cheerleaders for the very schemes that suffocate and liquidate their towns.

 
At February 24, 2005 at 4:48 PM, Blogger Ethan said...

oh great

 
At February 25, 2005 at 7:42 AM, Blogger legacyman said...

Justin, thanks so much for your reasoned, rationale comments in this discussion. You are doing more to help our image than we could ever do.

 
At February 25, 2005 at 10:14 AM, Blogger Stuart said...

This is Stuart Adams. If you really believe what you have said about me please give me your legal address so I can defend myself. If not, just say hidden.

 
At February 25, 2005 at 10:38 AM, Blogger BuildItNowDude said...

Justin, I don't know if you realize it or not, by the language you use, you are a horrible reflection on all of the decent people who oppose the Legacy Parkway.

 
At February 25, 2005 at 12:27 PM, Blogger Justin said...

Clever, "Stuart."

I'm not really too concerned about what I "reflect." I don't have to pander to any suburban constituency -- note the absence of self-indulgent references to alma maters or advanced degrees in my bio. (You're a sad little man, BIND.)

As for rational (no "e," for you planners reading along), I think my descriptions of the Legacy Highway and the mindcramped society that yearns for it are pretty accurate. Not at all irrational. Do you boys disagree? I wouldn't know. You seem concerned only about the niceness of the comments on your propaganda page.

 
At February 25, 2005 at 1:40 PM, Blogger Rick Davis said...

Justin

We very well knew and predicted that individuals like yourself would climb out from under your rock and expose yourself when we began to post our comments. I appreciate your willingness to accommodate us. I want to make sure every citizen in Davis County reads your entry. In fact, I encourage you to submit it for publication with the Standard Examiner. I want every citizen to get to know you and the other sheep that march to the drum beat of the sorry, pathetic left. Way to go! You are truly someone gifted with wisdom beyond your obvious lack of years.

 
At February 25, 2005 at 3:58 PM, Blogger Matt said...

Legacyman/BIND/Rick Davis:

For all your criticisms of Justin for not engaging in rational discussion, when are YOU doing it?
When have any of you ever actually responded, on the merits, to an opposing viewpoint posted on this blog?

There is a legitimate discussion to be had about the issue of highway construction, but you refuse to have it. I scroll through the comments on previous posts, and see many legitimate unanswered points.

Your responses are either haughty, know-it-all dismissals, or cable-news-show-talking-head-esque attempts to marginalize the other side's viewpoint without actually addressing it.

I hope that at least the elected officials in Davis County have better discussion/communication/critical thinking skills than you all do...

...what? You guys ARE the elected officials?

Oh.

 
At February 25, 2005 at 4:06 PM, Blogger BuildItNowDude said...

Matt,
What are your arguements against the Legacy Highway?

 
At February 25, 2005 at 4:21 PM, Blogger Justin said...

Hey, Rick, you musta forgotten to use your city-managing expertise if you "very well knew and predicted" -- I can't believe any of you guys really speaks the way you write -- that I'm a leftist. Actually, I'm just one more registered Republican who thinks you and the other demagogues in Utah politics are shameless spendmonkeys who love to throw millions (billions?) of dollars at the least noble of all uses of the public fisc: wretched six-laners, paving the way from once-beautiful urban form to sprawling, unlovable, parasitic bedroomvilles.

Do you ever face any opposition to these ideas in Davis County? (Or in the Standard-Examiner, which, as I understand, is printed in Ogden -- you know, Weber County?) Probably not, huh? That's why you and your pals here on the cluelessly named "Hotsheet" can't construct an argument against mine. Instead, you trot out the sarcastic thank-yous, pretend that I'm your political polar opposite, and sink further into your fetid, mushy comfort zone, the little intellectual cushion that props the Utah pave-ocracy's taglines:

... Mandatory driving's good ...
... suburbia is better ...
... and having the city-dwellers pay for it is best of all ...

Now that you've told me want you want, I'll respond likewise. I want you to identify one, just one, comment or argument I have made on this blog that could possibly represent a leftist ideology.

Remember, buddy, which group is demanding state subsidies for their hideous projects. Remember which group, in classic Stalinist form -- Moscow's a highway city now, too -- has chosen the singular transportation form on which Utahns shall rely. Remember which group is comfortable with public financing of deadly (to the small businessman) mega-retail complexes, or with last-minute re-writes of city codes and planning ordinances to accommodate the latest hollowed-out warehouse-to-be masquerading as "commercial venture," or with denying people like George Fisher, longtime Centerville resident, the meagerest expectation that his local government will listen to the will of its constituents.

There's nothing right-thinking or conservative about any of these tendencies, Rick. But you speak with such authority about my politics, so you must be able to tell me: What's a leftist stand for in Utah? MORE money spent on highways? LESS adherence to principles of local rule, community control, smallest government governs best? GREATER interdependence of government and business? (Why not just turn the state into a large, for-profit business, and vice versa? It worked so well in Mexico, Zimbabwe, Iraq, etc.)

This is why I think you, Rick, and you, Wilf, and you, Gary, and that Nelson joker and the Adams clown, are such frauds: you don't even really believe the language you use. You don't think that communities should be self-controlled. You don't think that government spending should be limited. You don't believe in supporting independent human-scaled enterprises over monolithic deathstar corpobeasts. The ideas never really enter your minds.

You'd rather spout catchphrases like "realism" and "economic progress."

Gimme a break.

Utahns would be realistically capable of charting their own economic progress if you'd just get the hell out of the way. Their landscape wouldn't be sullied by the twisted mess of freeways you've built for them. Their kids might walk to school without fear of getting mowed down by a crazed, lithium-sniffing housewife in an oversized SUV. They'd be less fat. They could walk to the store, to restaurants, to the bakery, to anyplace...

You've made those things impossible, Rick. You're to blame for the dystopic car-slavery that now reigns in Utah. You've taken the Reaganite mantra about governments so big that they can take everything away, and you've brought it to life.

Quite an achievement. So unbelievable, I'd have to be a conservative to notice it.

 
At February 25, 2005 at 4:30 PM, Blogger Justin said...

Oh, and to the fellow who insisted a few posts back that I "get a job":

No.

I like my Section 8 housing, man. I like collecting my unemployment checks every two weeks. I plan to keep doing so for the full four-year term. And after that, I'm going to fake an injury and get me some SSI. With any luck, I'll be able to earn as much in my life as the corrupted Utah government spends in a week to keep the highway industry idling on the wetlands...

 
At February 25, 2005 at 4:41 PM, Blogger Matt said...

My argu[e]ments against the highway is incredibly simple, and applies for any highway proposal in a high-growth suburban area (lest you unleash your intellectual juggernaut argument of "you don't live in Utah, so, uh, shut up!"):

The solution you advocate (building this highway) does not solve the problem you perceive (traffic). In fact, the solution makes the problem worse.

1. Building new highways does not alleviate traffic problems. It exacerbates them in the long run.
The theory is called "latent demand" or the "induced trips" idea. When automobile commutes get shorter due to more lanes being available, more people decide to drive, filling up those new lanes. One quote describing this phenomenon is "trying to cure traffic congestion by adding more capacity is like trying to cure obesity by loosening your belt."
Don't take my word for it: http://www.uctc.net/papers/520.pdf

2. Even if you dispute that theory, your camp has constantly beat the drum of "increased growth" as both an impetus for, and an expected result of, the new highway. You have to realize the ridiculous cycle, right? New bigger highway begets new growth, suburban and commercial. New growth begets more people and cars. More cars begets more traffic. More traffic begets demand for another new highway.
And then there you are again, in 10 years, dealing with the same problem, with residents in a new cocentric ring of suburban development named for whatever it replaced.

3. I always love it when a city manager - a public official - refers to the "left" as "pathetic" and "sheep." Classy.
OK, that one's probably not an argument against the highway. But it is a great snapshot of the frame of mind within which you are working, right?

 
At February 25, 2005 at 5:04 PM, Blogger Kristen said...

I don’t usually submit comments to blogs, but in this case I couldn’t help myself.

Legacyman and his partners in crime are sad, scary individuals who epitomize Utah Think. Example after example of confusing end results with impetus. Substituting smart urban planning with catering to the demands of the vox populi. Forgetting that, as urban planners, they should not be simply poll takers responding to what the people at large (more Utah Think!) “thinks” it wants/needs, but should use their *expertise* (admittedly, a stretch in your collective case) to improve quality of life. This blog has been a bizarre and telling education on what many Utahns consider improved quality of life.

I shan’t bother to point out the lack of connective tissue in your arguments or the books you should read or the cities you should take example from. It’s all just futile. Your lack of vision and disregard for history really are truly staggering. But, in case there is a tally, I would like to second the thoughts put forth on this blog by Justin/Matt, who envision the same dynamic communities despite divergent political ideologies. Could anything be better?

Not that I anticipate this ever happening, but you should welcome indigenous comments like Justin’s, and not with the Rick Davis sarcasm. You should embrace people who actually see what their state could and should be. He actually still has faith that his state can overcome Utah Think. I’m not so sure.

 
At February 25, 2005 at 9:50 PM, Blogger greenman said...

Justin,Matt,Kristen etc. Get over it and quit being the pesemistic cry babies that you are. You may hate the idea of the Legacy parkway/highway now, but once it's done, you will be driving on it just like everybody else (except for those that don't live here and who cares what you think)and then, you will realize that "hey, this wasn't such a bad idea after all, we should of had this years ago". For now I guess I'll have some fun laughing at all the gloom and doom you people are providing.
Good Night.

 
At February 26, 2005 at 9:44 PM, Blogger Justin said...

Good night, greenman. And good luck with that literacy effort.

I took Wilf at his word and looked up his letter to the editor in the S-E (a terribly inaccessible website, for those non-Utahns who haven't yet explored the Beehive State's daily media outlets' online resources). So, what does Wilf write to convince the masses that the Legacy Highway is a brilliant idea, however unlawfully implemented?

A couple things stood out.

1. According to Wilf, this plan is worthwhile because it's old. 50 years old, in fact. Remember, this is supposed to be evidence supportive of building the highway.

Let's leave aside the disgusting, heinous, Disneyfied land-use ideas that Wilf's visionary planning ancestors have inflicted on this country in the last fifty years. Let's ignore the dreadful donuting that every one of Utah's center-cities has experienced in that time. And let's forget about the mindless conventioneering and transiency-first economies that retards like Wilf, in their hilariously paradoxical capacity as "Economic Development" directors, have wrought. (No more Utah for Utahns -- we're better off as a third-rate Las Vegas or other such despicable business-tour locale.)

Forget all of it. Now ask yourself: Why would any idea that had its genesis 50 years ago be inherently relevant to the urban planning dilemma facing modern Utah?

In 1955, we didn't know so much of what we know now. We didn't know that America would reach her peak oil production in 1970, that the earth would see its peak sometime around 2008. We didn't know how catastrophic our hastily-constructed "urban renewal" schemes would be. We had no notion that state-sponsored multinational retail corporations would supplant Dan's and Granite Furniture and Sam Weller's as the sellers of locally grown or manufactured or distributed goods. We couldn't have envisioned that our suburbs would become , littered with cheaply-built, loathesome housing, cut off from any meaningful human-scaled community. We had no inkling that civic spaces, the beauty and nourishing nature of which we once took for granted, would be mangled so badly, becoming utterly grotesque and inhumane -- from prison-style schools to Soviet-worthy museums to chaotic libraries to senseless, degrading work places to putrid, cartoonish restaurants to depressing, phony, office-parkish centers of government. We never thought this new way of life would lead us to look like we do now, or our cities to look like they do now.

In short, we had no clue how badly the planners would foul things up.

But Wilf thinks 1955 was the high point of city-creating philosophy. Interesting. It reveals a little too much about the guy.

2. This paragraph:

In a process as broadly inclusive as developing a community general plan, it is virtually impossible to achieve unanimity on what that plan should be. But we live under a democratic form of government, and the will of the majority usually is allowed to prevail. So who, then, should prevail in this debate -- the majority of the citizens of our local communities as expressed through their locally developed plans, or the interests of a relatively small group with a different idea, who have chosen not to engage in the local planning process but instead are attempting to win through federal fiat?We can't take you seriously anymore, Wilf. You don't really believe that Davis County has a plan for managing its growth, for developing communites and economies of human-scale, for creating a beautiful, lovable set of cities and towns. You don't believe that because Davis County has no such plan. There is no regional planning in Utah, and you know it. Maybe you have a sinister, Robert Mosesian image you'd like to bring to bear, but that's not "will of the majority ... as expressed through their locally developed plans."

You're appropriating noble and timeless language and exploiting it for the cynicalist of rationalizations. You love freeways. You love the automobile-centered lifestyle. You love free parking, in huge lots, in front of Wal-Mart or Applebee's. You can't get enough consumer goods, on the cheap. When questioned on it, you cloak your cravings in the noblest words of our forefathers -- it's the farging American Dream, right, it's democracy in action. That's what the Legacy Highway represents: the will of the people.

You're so wrong, Wilf. So backward and wrong, you're practically parody. Sadly, my brother and sister Utahns have gotten so used to deluding themselves, to dumbing down their own standards, they have no problem putting up with the crudscape you've designed for them.

You'll pay, though, Wilf. When the oil runs out and the intellectual/aesthetic lights turn on, the crassness and meaninglessness of your idealized car-enslaved communities will be evident. I'd not want to be in your shoes then, pal. The masses won't be so tolerant of your freeway dreams.

 
At February 27, 2005 at 6:20 AM, Blogger legacyman said...

OK, let me try to respond to Matt and a few others about some of the reasons why we're saying what we say on this blog. Matt, I think if you look at some of the comments on previous blog entries, we do respond to previous comments and put forth some rationale for where we're at. I admit, some of our earlier entries have been irreverent and stinging, but in we are responding to some of the things the opponents to the project have said, and hey, we were trying to have a little fun here. Maybe that was a mistake.

So many of you seem to think that we are one way in our thinking and pushing for highways only at the cost of everything else. This is wrong.

I, for one, am an ardent supporter of transit, have been for many years. But I also have a job to perform, that is trying to make the communities we live in better places. And about ten years ago, I can tell you we could hardly even breath the word transit in any public meetings without being roundly excoriated as "unrealistic planners," that transit was nothing but a big waste of money because it hardly carried anyone.

But we kept at it, trying to show the benefits transit would bring. And we succeeded, to some extent. Transit is now an important part of the plans that have been adopted. And yes, whether we like it or not, we have to work through a public process that many commenters on this blog apparently don't like because it doesn't result in the view they have of the world. But I have to live and work in that world, and I promise you we've gotten what we have because we have slowly been pushing those ideas.

But I also see that transit is not the be-all, end-all. It only carries some 5% of total peak-hour travel demand in most metro areas around the country, and does not seem to be making great inroads beyond that. And we are growing (yes, that word many of you don't like, but it is a fact), and growing rapidly, with an infrastructure base that is not expanding very rapidly. Along the Wasatch Front, our population has increased substantially, but new road construction is far short of the rate of population growth (I can get you the exact numbers soon from the Wasatch Front Regional Council).

And, whether we like it or not, people prefer to drive cars because they are wealthy enough to afford it, and their lifestyles are built around it.

Yes, things will have to change -- the question is how rapidly. If we try to force wrenching change on our populations, they frequently respond with a backlash and kill what little progress we have made to do things a different way. Just look at Utah County, where the reluctance to embrace transit is even stronger than here in northern Utah. They are about all but stringing up people there who push for more transit.

Also, the unique geography of Davis County and northern Utah will limit how much more we can do with road expansions. But our tremendous growth, our current and slowly changing lifestyles, and the fact we have only one major roadway serving this area all say in any rational sense that we need at least one more roadway through this corridor. If we do not build it, I am convinced that the day will come that the residents of northern Utah will kill transit to put the money into the road, and will politically "kill" (not elect) anyone who doesn't promise them the road because mobility will be impossible compared with Salt Lake County and points north.

I can already hear many of your responses, calling us interesting things because you think we pander, etc. But this is how the real world works, gang, in small, incremental steps. And things are changing, like I said. We (in Davis County) started the push to get the additional quarter-cent sales tax for transit on the ballot in 2000. We made that progress in five years -- seems slow, is slow, but its getting there. And we voted for it with the highest percentage passing it, even higher than Salt Lake County. May not seem like much, I know, but its something, and it isn't all oriented one way.

Our residents are very supportive of the commuter rail system that is now about to start construction, and are eagerly participating in the planning for a bus rapid transit system in south Davis County, but funding reality puts that several years away. But we still know, that with all that enthusiasm, it will still carry only a small percentage of peak-hour travel demand. It just isn't going to change very fast. But, it IS changing.

As to the "visionary" nature of planners, I think we need to continue to be visionaries and push for ideas that are not found much in the community at large. But you can get your head chopped off doing that, too, again because people just aren't ready to change. I have working in my office now a planner who had his head chopped off in just such a manner.

One of you mentioned the Centerville fight against Wal-Mart. That whole scenario started several years ago with a proposal (supported by planning money from Envision Utah and the Utah Quality Growth Commission) to plan a town center in Centerville. The city planner at the time worked hard for the concept, and had the support of some of the elected officials and planning commissioners. But there was still some rock-hard opposition in the community. Eventually, the plan foundered and died because those who didn't want it came out in force, elected a mayor who was opposed and unseated a couple of supportive council members. The planner was fired. That left the door wide open for Wal-Mart to come through, and they did. And now the residents don't want it either. What to do? As planners working in the public sector, sometimes it is better to fade back a bit so you can work again another day.

Planning is a public process, whether we like it or not, and citizens will say what they want. We hope to craft and shape that thought, but it takes time and doesn't always succeed right at first. But I do think we're on the right path with the shared solution plan we have for transportation on the Wasatch Front. It's better now that what we had ten years ago.

 
At February 27, 2005 at 7:01 AM, Blogger legacyman said...

Oh, and about growth and the new roadway inducing more growth. In Davis County, indeed, pretty much all of the Wasatch Front, we are growing at a tremendous rate, even without a new highway. Our growth rates are the same for the last 30 years. We have the smallest land area of all counties in Utah, and we will be completely built out by 2030. We also know that at when we are built out, unless there is another roadway through south Davis County, there will not be enough capacity to handle the demand -- much like continuing to add sand in the top bulb of an hourglass without ever widening the narrow connection, it will just take longer and longer for the sand to get through. That will result in extreme frustration on the part of northern Utah residents, and will damage our economy and quality of life.

That growth is happening now, and will continue until we are built out -- its not that far away. If we do not plan ahead for the infrastructure that we need now, we will likely have to take out homes and businesses to provide it in the future when it is glaringly obvious that it is needed.

Transit will HAVE to be a part of that future -- we cannot build enough roads to meet all the demand. But we have to build what we reasonably can, else the public will suffer and, in all likelihood, lynch us.

 
At February 27, 2005 at 7:30 AM, Blogger Justin said...

Wow, Wilf, that was some reasoned prose. It would all make sense -- the notion that the Legacy Highway is a reluctant compromise, a necessary evil -- if you hadn't ...

CREATED A WEBPAGE PROMOTING THE LEGACY HIGHWAY AND ITS IMMEDIATE CONSTRUCTION.

Parody, my man. P. A. Rody.

 
At February 27, 2005 at 7:31 AM, Blogger Justin said...

Wow, Wilf, that was some reasoned prose. It would all make sense -- the notion that the Legacy Highway is a reluctant compromise, a necessary evil -- if you hadn't ...

CREATED A WEBPAGE PROMOTING THE LEGACY HIGHWAY AND ITS IMMEDIATE CONSTRUCTION.

Parody, my man. P. A. Rody.

 
At February 27, 2005 at 7:32 AM, Blogger Justin said...

Wow, Wilf, that was some reasoned prose. It would all make sense -- the notion that the Legacy Highway is a reluctant compromise, a necessary evil -- if you hadn't ...

CREATED A WEBPAGE PROMOTING THE LEGACY HIGHWAY AND ITS IMMEDIATE CONSTRUCTION.

Parody, my man. P. A. Rody.

 
At February 27, 2005 at 7:33 AM, Blogger Justin said...

Wow, Wilf, that was some reasoned prose. It would all make sense -- the notion that the Legacy Highway is a reluctant compromise, a necessary evil -- if you hadn't ...

CREATED A WEBPAGE PROMOTING THE LEGACY HIGHWAY AND ITS IMMEDIATE CONSTRUCTION.

Parody, my man. P. A. Rody.

 
At February 27, 2005 at 7:37 AM, Blogger Justin said...

Sorry... stupid Blogger.

 
At February 28, 2005 at 2:15 PM, Blogger google_PEAK_OIL said...

Could it be, legacyman, that you have come to the realization that you are in a position of creating the infrastructure for a future that isn't going to happen, but you are trapped by political reality and the need to protect your career to continue the facade? Guess what, you wouldn't be the first planner to face this dilemna.
have a look at:
http://www.unplanning.blogspot.com

 
At February 28, 2005 at 4:30 PM, Blogger google_PEAK_OIL said...

for your convenience, a brief excerpt from unplanning.blogspot.com


So it comes as no shock that when became aware last June that all of my previously conceived viewpoints on the world in general and the planning field specifically were built on an unsustainable premise, that I would begin to delve deeper into this new information and take that and apply it against everything that I learned and practiced to date.

.
What I learned of course, was that we are running out of energy. Literally. As shocking and uncomfortable as it may seem at first, the scientific evidence is mounting that mankind is at the verge of exhausting its supply of cheap oil. I say cheap, because we are quickly approaching what is known as “peak oil.” Without going into much detail, this theory states when oil reserves are half gone, production peaks and begins its terminal decline. Once the decline begins, it is unstoppable. You cannot drill your way out of that looming shortfall. Oil is significant of course, because our modern industrialized civilization revolves around it and more importantly, its continued growth. The problem is after the peak of production, less comes out of the ground each year. Unfortunately demand does not move downward easily so simple economics dictates that oil prices are set to sky rocket. $55 a barrel is just the beginning. As if that were not enough, North America is also on the verge of losing its natural gas supply to the end stages of the Natural Gas Depletion curve.

.
* * * *
.
So what does this have to do with planning? Everything. Our whole way of life, from the way we design our cities, shape our land use policies and base our economic development programs are dependent on cheap oil and natural gas. This country took a huge gamble after World War II when we traded in the traditional urban model of development one revolving around public transportation, high densities and mixed use for one that permitted low densities and single use zoning revolving around the automobile. This fateful decision was made possible because at the time, the US sat on the largest oil fields in the world, while our production capacities far outpaced our need for the product. So with this seemingly unlimited gift of cheap energy, we transformed our built environment to fully take advantage of it.

.
Unfortunately, the bills are coming due. Not only is our road and utility infrastructure now starting to show its age, oil isn’t the bargain it once was. Nor are we enamored with our cars like we once were. As uncomfortable as it is becoming now, at least energy production is still climbing, albeit slowly. When oil and gas production begin their inevitable decline (2005 to 2008 for oil, differing dates for gas) things will really take a turn for the worse. Meanwhile our planning efforts (or lack thereof) from the past will come back to haunt us for generations to come.
.

 
At March 1, 2005 at 2:01 PM, Blogger Rick Davis said...

Justin

I struck a nerve apparently. A very good man I know once said, "The hit bird flutters." (Please don't embarrass yourself further by attempting to critique the above phrase.) Justin, my boy, you are certainly fluttering.

The fact remains, regardless of your personal attacks, a second highway is sorely needed in Davis County. Specifically, you need to embrace the shared solution. This includes not only Legacy, but also the expansion of I-15 and the implementation of mass transit.

I made reference to your position as being "sick" and "leftist" simply because you and others in your camp seem to disregard the popular support of this project. Individuals like you appear to place more trust in the courts than in the citizens whom they serve. Why would any red-blooded "conservative" like you do such a thing? Simply because you are fully convinced of your own intellectual superiority. You believe that it is not only appropriate but necessary that a few of the enlightened intellegencia of our society make decisions for the masses.

Now take a breath . . . I am also sure that your intentions are good. I simply question your judgement and techniques. I understand that you don't approve of the way many of our communities are developing. I believe this is a great concern to you. I too would like to find some alternative that would release us from dependence on foreign oil and an ever expanding network of roadways. However, you must apply reason to your arguments. People will continue to need roadways, probably for the remainder of your or my life. We can and should make progress in developing alternative means of transportation and shifting dependence away from the automobile. No one is going to argue about that.

Meanwhile, you need to know that no city is currently dedicating a greater share of its total resources to trail construction than West Point City. The City was awarded the Governor's Quality Growth Award in 2003 and we're being considered for another this year. We have illustrated our support of Envision Utah principles.

However, if we do not respond to today's transportation needs, we risk ruining our fragile economy and putting people at risk. And before you assume that by referring to "economy" I am speaking of rich, white dudes; allow me to clarify that I am speaking of average, working families. In addition, as recent events on I-15 illustrated, one way in or out of Davis County presents a potentially dangerous situation. I have in fact studied the Redwood Road alternative. You and I both know that this option will destroy communities, displace people, and inevitably not provide the capacity to meet our transportation needs. The current Legacy Parkway plan, in contrast, preserves more than 2100 acres of wetlands. Why on earth would anyone concerned about the environment sacrifice 2100 acres to save 100?

Let's have a dialogue on this. Let's put away the personal attacks. I'll stop calling you a leftist and you stop referring to me and my colleagues as liars and frauds. I know them. They are neither liars nor frauds. Let's work together toward a better Utah. Isn't that what both of us want?

 
At March 1, 2005 at 2:02 PM, Blogger Rick Davis said...

Justin

I struck a nerve apparently. A very good man I know once said, "The hit bird flutters." (Please don't embarrass yourself further by attempting to critique the above phrase.) Justin, my boy, you are certainly fluttering.

The fact remains, regardless of your personal attacks, a second highway is sorely needed in Davis County. Specifically, you need to embrace the shared solution. This includes not only Legacy, but also the expansion of I-15 and the implementation of mass transit.

I made reference to your position as being "sick" and "leftist" simply because you and others in your camp seem to disregard the popular support of this project. Individuals like you appear to place more trust in the courts than in the citizens whom they serve. Why would any red-blooded "conservative" like you do such a thing? Simply because you are fully convinced of your own intellectual superiority. You believe that it is not only appropriate but necessary that a few of the enlightened intellegencia of our society make decisions for the masses.

Now take a breath . . . I am also sure that your intentions are good. I simply question your judgement and techniques. I understand that you don't approve of the way many of our communities are developing. I believe this is a great concern to you. I too would like to find some alternative that would release us from dependence on foreign oil and an ever expanding network of roadways. However, you must apply reason to your arguments. People will continue to need roadways, probably for the remainder of your or my life. We can and should make progress in developing alternative means of transportation and shifting dependence away from the automobile. No one is going to argue about that.

Meanwhile, you need to know that no city is currently dedicating a greater share of its total resources to trail construction than West Point City. The City was awarded the Governor's Quality Growth Award in 2003 and we're being considered for another this year. We have illustrated our support of Envision Utah principles.

However, if we do not respond to today's transportation needs, we risk ruining our fragile economy and putting people at risk. And before you assume that by referring to "economy" I am speaking of rich, white dudes; allow me to clarify that I am speaking of average, working families. In addition, as recent events on I-15 illustrated, one way in or out of Davis County presents a potentially dangerous situation. I have in fact studied the Redwood Road alternative. You and I both know that this option will destroy communities, displace people, and inevitably not provide the capacity to meet our transportation needs. The current Legacy Parkway plan, in contrast, preserves more than 2100 acres of wetlands. Why on earth would anyone concerned about the environment sacrifice 2100 acres to save 100?

Let's have a dialogue on this. Let's put away the personal attacks. I'll stop calling you a leftist and you stop referring to me and my colleagues as liars and frauds. I know them. They are neither liars nor frauds. Let's work together toward a better Utah. Isn't that what both of us want?

 
At March 2, 2005 at 5:09 PM, Blogger google_PEAK_OIL said...

It's kind of ironic that West Point City officials seem to form the core of the Legacy Highway support group, because THE LEGACY HIGHWAY WILL NEVER, EVER, REACH WEST POINT.
This is a fact that has nothing to do with the efforts of the Sierra Club or Rocky Anderson or any other group or individual. The Legacy Highway effort will simply be abandoned once it becomes common knowledge that we are in an energy crisis of unprecedented seriousness that will not end, and it becomes obvious that we already have all the roads we will ever need and then some.
Do I expect mr. Davis or any other West Point official to believe this? Not really. But that's actually a good thing. As long as West Point keeps it's faith in the Legacy Highway and jealously guards the easements and right-of-ways and such, nothing will be built there. It will remain farmland, and as anyone familiar with the issue of peak oil and it's likely consequences knows, local farmland may become vitally important to future communities.

 
At March 3, 2005 at 6:14 PM, Blogger Justin said...

Let's work together toward a better Utah. Isn't that what both of us want?No. No, I don't want to work with you, Rick. And, no, I don't think you want a better Utah. And even if you did, your flavor of "better" would be such a foul, rancid concoction of suburban swill, I wouldn't serve it to my worst suburban enemy.

I'd rather you take Wilf's shallow bit of careerist advice:

As planners working in the public sector, sometimes it is better to fade back a bit so you can work again another day.Strange that Wilf chose not to heed that advice in re this blog.

Wait -- not so strange at all. That comment perfectly encapsulates Wilf's attitude (and yours, Rick) toward the art of city-building: whatever keeps my paycheck coming.

So, no, Rick, I'm not gonna work with you, ever. When I come back to Utah and get sworn in as king, you'll be the first one behind the oxen, tilling my fields. That will be your penance for this crime against humanity. (If you can find it -- amazing how many government positions a town of 8000 needs -- click on "City Manager" to see Rick's Men's Wearhouse-based aesthetic.)

Oh, and Rick, this penance? You'll be to suplicating yourself before the intelligenTSia, moron. No "c." Unless you were channeling your Honduran brethren... where'd you serve your mission?

No matter. All your talk-radio-informed quips wash off easily. Like the crap about favoring the courts over the will of the people. Lord, it's like you take your daily pill from NRO Corner and spit it back out at the earlist opportunity.

Where do you think NEPA came from, you shmuck? The courts?

See, it's just cant. That's all you pave-ocrats have behind you: the shrill cant of a few decades' worth of highway-building tradition.

You'll be gone in a few years, though, because "the people" -- you like that? -- won't put up with your putrid suburb-of-suburb communities anymore. They'll want their humanity back.

 
At March 6, 2005 at 3:19 PM, Blogger Justin said...

Hey, congrats, guys. Another victory.

Wouldn't it be nice if UDOT were honest enough to change its name to Utah Department of Highway Building and Expansion? UDOHBE? Nice ring, I think.

So, are those $90M working examples of conservative government? Just answer honestly. It's okay. Nobody will judge you. Just say it:

Yes, Justin, we like shiny new roads more than we like our principles.Why? I'll tell you. 'Cuz they facilitate the culture that provides this depressing bit of news.

 
At March 6, 2005 at 3:23 PM, Blogger Justin said...

You know what's funny? Davis County is actually progressive, at least when compared to its warped, incest-product cousin to the south, Utah County.

The local "conservatives" down there wanna spend $30M on ... you guessed it ... a couple new freeway lanes and an on-/off-ramp. So thoughtful, so caring, so interested in the future, the beauty, the liveability of Utah County.

 
At March 7, 2005 at 5:56 AM, Blogger google_PEAK_OIL said...

Justin, you make a convincing argument that Utahns should open their eyes and see the car-dependency trap they've built for themselves but then you give them an excuse to ignore everything you say by hurling insults.
You would be more effective if you stay on target and don't get personal. Who cares about Rick Davis's suit.

It may be a moot point anyway, I think this blog has been abandoned.
The blogmasters don't want the sheep to be inadvertently made aware of of the negative consequences of energy depletion and card dependency.

 
At March 7, 2005 at 5:57 AM, Blogger google_PEAK_OIL said...

sorry, meant to say "car dependency"

 
At March 7, 2005 at 8:45 PM, Blogger Michael said...

google_Peak Oil_:

That's just it! The greeting card industry is in this just as deep as Detroit! Oh man.

I think you're right, BuildItNowDude and Milf, or whatever their names are, seem to have tired of their blog. Maybe because the only people reading it were calling them out on the flaws inherent in their short-term-only planning style.

 
At March 9, 2005 at 11:59 AM, Blogger Rick Davis said...

Justin

It has become apparent that you are a very disturbed individual who has linked onto this blog as means obtaining free therapy. I tested the waters and have determined that a dialogue with you is impractical. Your comments demonstrate an intellectual deficit which makes further exchange with you impossible. Should you wish to continue a rational, intelligent, and adult dialogue on the Legacy issue, and you are properly medicated, I will be happy to do so in person; but not on this site.

 
At March 10, 2005 at 5:53 PM, Blogger google_PEAK_OIL said...

I dunno, Rick. Justin might be a jerk, but he seems pretty rational and lucid to me. And why in the world would you want go private to have a "rational, intellegent and adult dialog on the Legacy issue" when presumably the very purpose of this blog is to do that very exact thing in public? Enquiring minds would like to listen in.

Jason just seems to be really really passionate about the idea that building communities around total dependency on the automobile is a very bad thing. Perhaps you could take the counterpoint and explian why building communities around total dependency on the automobile is actually a good thing. You have our very own city to use as a prime example of car dependency. Every workday morning I hike over a mile to Clearfield just to reach a bus stop. The closest place to my home I can buy a gallon of milk is right next to that mile-away bus stop. How far would you have to walk to your job? to your child's school? to your church? to the grocery store?

 
At June 8, 2005 at 11:46 PM, Blogger Former Centerville Citizen said...

I take it this blog has pretty much died, since no posts have been made since February 24. What a shame. I found it so interesting too. If anyone comes across this comment I'm leaving, check out www.centervillecitizen.blogspot.com Have a great day.

 
At June 10, 2005 at 11:04 AM, Blogger google_PEAK_OIL said...

6/10/05 - Hi, Centerville Citizen. The blog originators have long since abandoned thier effort, but some of us still check for activity from time to time.

The Blogmasters made the critical mistake of permitting back-sass from the readers. They inadvertently created a forum where their intended audience could be exposed to the idea that the giant auto suburb, freeway, and off-ramp mega-retailer model of how we should live might not be the most ideal of all possible living environments, and that there might be problems with sustaining and growing it into the forseeable future. I am surprised that they have allowed the blog to remain available with all the contrary comments intact. Im not sure how blogger.com works, but perhaps the originators do not have the power to kill a blog once it has been started.

 
At June 12, 2005 at 11:10 AM, Blogger Former Centerville Citizen said...

I know that if you're in control of a blog, you do have the power to get rid of comments you don't want, but I don't know how you'd go about getting rid of the entire blog altogether. So on the positive side, at least the people who started this blog let you and other people of different opinions keep comments on here. I just wish I could get a lot of comments on my blog, but I do have a few people who supposedly check it out every few days.

 
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At February 22, 2010 at 3:51 AM, Blogger 睡衣 said...

When everything is coming your way, you are in the wrong lane.............................................

 
At March 13, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Blogger lady said...

希望是風雨之夜所現之曉霞........................................

 
At March 27, 2010 at 1:58 AM, Blogger 季玉 said...

天下沒有走不通的路,沒有克服不了的困難,沒有打不敗的敵人。..................................................

 
At April 5, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Blogger 曉豪 said...

人是受想像力所支配的。........................................

 
At April 15, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Blogger 于名于倫 said...

良言一句三冬暖,惡語傷人六月寒。......................................................

 
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At April 29, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Blogger o0625TaylorJ_Duraz said...

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At May 9, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Blogger IrmaOrbison said...

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At May 18, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Blogger 冠慧 said...

真正的友誼,有如健康失去時,始知其價值..................................................

 
At May 27, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Blogger DagnyDepa芝汝 said...

與人相處不妨多用眼睛說話,多用嘴巴思考,.........................

 
At June 3, 2010 at 6:04 AM, Blogger 韋于倫成 said...

感覺很好的blog,祝你開心喔..................................................

 
At June 6, 2010 at 10:05 PM, Blogger 柏勳 said...

任何你憂慮的事,你都應該去採取一點行動,不要只是在那邊想..................................................

 
At June 10, 2010 at 5:43 AM, Blogger 俊翔 said...

Learn wisdom by the follies of others. ............................................................

 
At June 13, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Blogger vickiekurt said...

若無一番寒徹骨,焉得梅花撲鼻香。 ............................................................

 
At June 17, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Blogger 家賢 said...

每一粒厄運的種子,卻包孕著未來豐盛的果實......................................................................

 
At June 21, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Blogger 雅婷 said...

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At June 21, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Blogger 向霖 said...

真是太有道理了~~我支持你~~~.................................................................

 
At June 26, 2010 at 5:32 AM, Blogger 怡潔 said...

要照顧身體歐~保重......................................................................

 
At June 29, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Blogger 健豪 said...

生存乃是不斷地在內心與靈魂交戰;寫作是坐著審判自己。....................................................................

 
At July 3, 2010 at 4:37 AM, Blogger juliancu said...

成熟,就是有能力適應生活中的模糊。.................................................................

 
At July 7, 2010 at 7:35 AM, Blogger 戴昀德 said...

It takes all kinds to make a world.............................................................

 
At July 9, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Blogger 賢林賢林 said...

很榮幸能到你的BLOG留言o^~^o..................................................................

 
At July 11, 2010 at 8:02 PM, Blogger 云依恩HFH謝鄭JTR安 said...

很精彩的部落格 期待你的繼續加油..................................................................

 
At July 14, 2010 at 12:07 AM, Blogger 幸雨幸雨 said...

人生匆匆-把握當下,支持鼓勵~事事如意~..................................................................

 
At July 16, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Blogger 承蘋承蘋 said...

如果成為一支火柴,也要點亮一個短暫的宇宙;如果是一隻烏鴉,也要叫疼閉塞的耳膜。..................................................................

 
At July 18, 2010 at 11:49 PM, Blogger 陳倩江陳倩江 said...

加油-不論如何都期待您的新發表!............................................................

 
At July 21, 2010 at 3:05 PM, Blogger 彥安 said...

Never put off till tomorrow what may be done today.......................................................................

 
At July 24, 2010 at 2:54 AM, Blogger 楊儀卉 said...

人生的價值以及他的快樂,都在於他有能力看重自己的生存................................................

 
At July 27, 2010 at 12:01 AM, Blogger 黃黃莉茹曉元 said...

Haste makes waste...................................................

 
At July 29, 2010 at 11:59 PM, Blogger 鄭雅雯 said...

Many a true word is spoken in jest..................................................................

 
At August 2, 2010 at 4:36 AM, Blogger 姚吳宗瑞家弘 said...

時間就是塑造生命的材料。

 
At August 5, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Blogger 群育航學 said...

Never put off till tomorrow what may be done today..................................................................

 
At August 7, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Blogger 吳沛黃以富民 said...

Knowledge is a treasure, but practice is the key to it.................................................

 
At August 10, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Blogger 偉曹琬 said...

我真心在追求我的夢想時,每一天都是繽紛的。因為我知道每一個小時都是實現理想 的一部份。............................................................

 
At August 12, 2010 at 11:07 PM, Blogger 劉王育正劉王育正 said...

未來的幸福是用現在買來的。.. ... ............................................................

 
At August 14, 2010 at 11:20 PM, Blogger 麗王王珠 said...

良言一句三冬暖,惡語傷人六月寒。......................................................................

 
At August 19, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Blogger 佳張張張張燕張張張張張 said...

卡爾.桑得柏:「除非先有夢,否則一切皆不成。」共勉!.................................................................

 
At August 22, 2010 at 12:59 AM, Blogger 孫邦柔 said...

很喜歡你的部落格,來給你加油,幫你推一下喔~期待你的下一個更新,謝謝................................................

 

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